前MI6局长评CIA政治化清洗及美英情报合作

Sat down with Sir Richard Dearlove, the former head of British intelligence and cohost of the One Decision Podcast. I mean, if you look at the European intelligence agencies, for largely historical reasons, there's no question that The United Kingdom in MI six has, let's say, the agency with the broadest international remit with representation in many countries and with a depth and length of experience which is unmatched by any other European service.

I mean, bearing in mind MI6 is a historical creation that goes back to nineteen o nine, and there's no other European service that has a history with that debt. So I'm not surprised. Of course, it's the best European service. I wouldn't say that, wouldn't I? Why is human intelligence so important? What makes it so valuable? Because I think you can only really find out the sort of detail of what you're searching for by talking to the people who've actually got access to the decision making process in the foreign government.

So let's say the current war in Iran, I would imagine that, let's say, Mossad has human resources amongst the Iranian leadership. You therefore get a much more integrated and clear picture of how the leadership of the IRGC is thinking in the conduct of the war. Mean intercept can be valuable and really important, but you might only have a partial picture. You know data analysis doesn't give you that human dimension then.

Is it getting harder to recruit and train people to be successful operations agents? I mean, do people still want to be spies? It seems like in an era where everybody wants to tell everybody everything. Is it hard to say to a smart young person, we want you to do a lot of risky amazing stuff, but you can't put it on Instagram? Yeah. I guess that's a good point, but I think if the career is regarded as prestigious, if the career offer is good.

I mean, can honestly say I was in MI six for thirty eight years, and despite the discipline, the restraints, the secrecy, I probably never had a boring day at work. How many people could say that in her first year career? So there is an attraction. I think it requires a special type of character, you know, that's suited to the work. Of course, not everybody is and the selection is pretty fierce, but certainly in The UK it's maintained its reputation as an attractive career.

In some other countries where the intelligence community has been more politicized, I wouldn't say that's necessarily true. Well, speaking of, I'm wondering what your assessment is right now of cooperation between MI six and the CIA. I know when you were head of the agency, you spent a lot of time in Washington. You spent a lot of time, both at the in Langley and in the White House. But is that cooperation as good as it used to be, and does the CIA have a retention and recruiting problem at the moment?

Well, the last of your questions first. I'm told that CIA does have a recruiting problem at the moment. But that's maybe because there has recently, I think rather shockingly, been a purge of senior officers on the basis of the degree of their loyalty loyalty to to mega republicanism. I mean, it shouldn't be a party issue, but I think it's become so. And I think the previous or the party DDA, that's the head of the operational bid of CIA, I think it was called Tom Saw Vesta, who should have finished his career in London has been denied the job and has retired because it wasn't absolutely clear that he was a sort of uncritical mega Republican supporter.

I find that very alarming and not good for the service at all. I mean, the tradition in MI6 is that you work whatever party is in government, that you don't express a political opinion. And okay, you are denied that opportunity publicly to advertise your own views. But that is part of the discipline of being a national intelligence officer. I think the CIA at the moment certainly seems to have a problem. I guess that will pass because it has a tradition of producing and training very capable field offices.

When you look at other intelligence agencies, including MI six, at the moment, do they trust the CIA? Do they trust sharing intelligence with The United States? Yes. I think they do. I would say that over time, there have always been issues of complexity in those sorts of relationship because there can be divergence in political aims, and there can be problems which arise sometimes which are not publicized. I mean during my time, although we were very, very close to CIA, I'm talking about nine eleven or let's say the war in Afghanistan, war in Iraq.

If you go back a step before that, there were problems between The UK and The US over the conflict in the Balkans where there were policy differences and problems arose which were more of a political nature. This isn't unknown, but I mean, I would have thought that both sides will be trying to make the operation work, but sometimes you have a view in the White House or maybe you have a view in Number 10 Downing Street, can cause problems.

I mean, these relationships can be quite complicated. And, you know, objective, particularly short term ones, can diverge. Would you still recommend a career in intelligence for a young person either in Washington or in London? Yes. I think I would. I mean, if you're interested in geopolitics, if you're interested in the state of the world, if you are cool headed, if you like if you feel at home in foreign countries and you are comfortable in those sorts of environment, Korea can still offer a lot.

And I think maybe some of the current difficulties that may have arisen between Washington and London, I wouldn't like to overemphasize them. I think the relationship is still quite close on the intelligence side probably. You know, these things come and go, and I'm sure that, you know, the present administration in The US, I think we regard as something of an aberration. But there are still areas of cooperation which are hugely important.

Maybe I missed my calling, although I do like to talk. I'm not great at keeping secrets. Super secret. You know, I think you've been you would have been great at the job.