DHH谈AI编程革命：Opus 4.5是分水岭，编程已转向Agent主导
DHH: Future of Programming, AI, Agentic Engineering, Vibe Coding & Linux | Lex Fridman Podcast #501
- There are decades where nothing happens and weeks where decades happen. And we have seen decades of progress happen in the last nine months. If you're not recognizing the gravity of the moment, that's the delusion. That's the psychosis. Who would not get delirious if suddenly a genie pops out of the bottle and says, "You can have whatever you want. Every feature you've ever dreamed of in an operating system, I can deliver them to you, most of them in five minutes, a few in 20, and if we really go hog wild, it's gonna take me two hours."
- 有些年代平淡无奇，有些星期却仿佛跨越了数十年。而我们在过去九个月里，见证了数十年的进步。如果你没有意识到此刻的严重性，那才是错觉，那才是病态。如果突然有个精灵从瓶子里蹦出来说：“你想要什么都可以。你在操作系统里梦想过的每一个功能，我都能给你，大部分五分钟内搞定，少数二十分钟，如果我们真的放开手脚，那大概需要两小时。”谁不会为此欣喜若狂呢？
I want the fastest car breaking the speed limits. I want the diver watch that can go down the Mariana Trench. I want the operating system that can install in less than 60 seconds. One of the things I always loved about race cars was when I would stumble out of the car absolutely smashed and barely able to hold my head up, and I'd lay down on the garage floor and just think, "Holy fuck, I'm alive." The Overton window does not open itself.
我想要一辆超速最快的赛车。我想要一块能潜入马里亚纳海沟的潜水表。我想要一个能在60秒内安装完成的操作系统。我一直喜欢赛车的一点是，当我从车里跌跌撞撞出来，浑身瘫软，几乎抬不起头，躺在车库地板上，心里只想：“天哪，我还活着。”奥弗顿之窗不会自己打开。
It opens one nudge at a time by people risking a little. A little reputation, a little pushback, a little criticism, or maybe sometimes a lot of reputation or a lot of criticism or a lot of pushback. Creating life with another human that you love is literally the peak experience of being on the planet. - The following is a conversation with David Heinemeier Hansson, also known as DHH, creator of Ruby on Rails, CTO of 37signals, creator of the new Omarchy Linux operating system, best-selling author, race car driver, and one of the most outspoken and prolific programmers in the world.
它是一点一点被那些冒点风险的人推开的。冒一点名声的风险，一点反驳，一点批评，或者有时是很大的名声风险，很大的批评，很大的反驳。与你所爱的人共同创造生命，确实是地球上最巅峰的体验。——以下是与大卫·海涅迈尔·汉松的对话，他也被称为DHH，Ruby on Rails的创造者，37signals的首席技术官，新Omarchy Linux操作系统的创造者，畅销书作家，赛车手，以及世界上最具直言不讳和最多产的程序员之一。
For the past 20-plus years, for him, programming meant meticulously handcrafting beautiful Ruby code. But recently, since late 2025, DHH has embraced the AI revolution and has openly transformed himself into, once again, one of the most outspoken and prolific agentic engineers, even though he hates that term. So let's say practitioners of whatever programming is becoming where AI is doing most of the actual programming and the human steers the ship with high-level design, vision, and taste.
过去二十多年里，对他来说，编程意味着精心手工打造优美的Ruby代码。但最近，自2025年底以来，DHH拥抱了AI革命，公开地再次转变自己，成为最具直言不讳和最多产的智能体工程师之一，尽管他讨厌这个术语。所以，让我们称他为编程正在演变成的任何形态的实践者，其中AI承担了大部分实际编程工作，而人类以高层设计、愿景和品味来掌舵。
Yes, it's true. DHH is at times controversial, but he's always fearless, brilliant, and fun to talk to. This was, once again, an intense, eye-opening, and wild rollercoaster ride of a conversation. This is a Lex Fridman podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description where you can also find links to contact me, ask questions, give feedback, and so on. And now, dear friends, here's DHH. 13 months ago, we sat down right here to talk about programming, and then everything changed.
是的，确实如此。DHH 有时颇具争议，但他总是无畏、才华横溢，而且交谈起来非常有趣。这再次是一场激烈、令人眼界大开、如过山车般疯狂的对话。这是 Lex Fridman 播客。为了支持我们，请查看描述中的赞助商，那里也有联系我、提问、提供反馈等的链接。现在，亲爱的朋友们，有请 DHH。13 个月前，我们就在这里坐下来谈论编程，然后一切都变了。
At that time, you were a bit skeptical about the role of AI in the process of programming, and then we went through this rapid evolution of agentic engineering. So, simple question to start: How has your view on AI's role in programming changed? Are you excited? Are you terrified? Are you on an emotional rollercoaster ride? - I am incredibly excited. - You've been talking about fun a lot. - There is none of the existential threat.
那时，你对 AI 在编程过程中的作用有些怀疑，然后我们经历了代理工程（agentic engineering）的快速演进。所以，简单的问题开始：你对 AI 在编程中作用的看法有何变化？你兴奋吗？你害怕吗？你情绪像坐过山车吗？——我极其兴奋。——你一直在说很多“有趣”。——对我来说，不存在生存威胁。
That doesn't exist for me as an emotional component. It is only there as an intellectual component, and the emotional component for me is 100% pure, unadulterated joy- ... and optimism and amazement that we've made computers do this. And I find it so interesting that we talked just 13 months ago because it's like we talked in different universes, different eras. I love this quote. I think it's Lenin. There are decades where nothing happens and weeks where decades happen.
那对我来说不是一种情绪成分。它只存在于智力层面，而我的情绪成分是 100% 纯粹的、未掺杂的喜悦——以及乐观和惊叹，我们竟然让计算机做到了这一点。我觉得很有趣的是，我们仅仅在 13 个月前谈过话，因为那就像是在不同的宇宙、不同的时代交谈。我喜欢这句话，我想是列宁说的：有几十年时间什么都没发生，而有几周时间却发生了几十年的变化。
And we have seen decades of progress happen in the last nine months. I mean, imagine you're there when the Wright brothers take flight. Yesterday, the New York Times would write, "It's gonna be 10,000 years before we fly," and then the day after, we're up in the skies, and just a few years after that, there were cross-Atlantic planes. The whole world has completely changed. What a blessing to be there in that moment.
而在过去九个月里，我们见证了数十年的进步。我的意思是，想象你在莱特兄弟起飞的那一刻。昨天，《纽约时报》还会写“要一万年我们才能飞起来”，而第二天，我们就飞上了天空，仅仅几年后，就有了跨大西洋的飞机。整个世界彻底改变了。能身处那一刻，是多么幸运啊。
If you zoom out and look at all of human history, how many humans got to live within the same epoch that they were born in? They never saw that complete change of the world and of society. And to have been blessed with two of those feels just such a privilege. I got to see the internet- ... from pre-internet to post-internet, and then now pre-AI, post-AI. What an amazing run. How fortunate. - Yeah, but the thing is, this feels like a thing that happened faster than anything else in human history. - Correct. - So I would say somewhere around December, maybe late November- - November 24. - This is... - That's the exact moment. - You know, when they talk about when one nation invades another in a world war or something like this, it-- this is how we talk about AI changing everything.
如果你拉远视角，纵观整个人类历史，有多少人能活在自己出生的那个时代里？他们从未见过世界和社会的彻底变革。而能两次见证这样的变革，真是一种莫大的荣幸。我见证了互联网——从互联网前到互联网后，然后又见证了人工智能前到人工智能后。多么精彩的历程。多么幸运。- 是的，但问题是，这感觉像是人类历史上发生得比任何事都快的事情。- 没错。- 所以我会说大概在十二月，也许十一月底——- 十一月二十四日。- 这是……- 那正是那个时刻。- 你知道，当人们谈论一个国家在世界大战中入侵另一个国家或类似的事情时，这——这就是我们谈论人工智能改变一切的方式。
Yeah, the... And it really just sh- shifted for many great developers. It shifted to where AI is doing some, basic autocomplete, maybe writing 5, 10, 15, 20% of code to writing 80% of code. - Or 100. - Or 100, yeah, especially if it's not a public-facing product. - To me, that's why even when I look back upon our conversation a year ago, I don't actually have different opinions. I have the same opinions. A year ago, I did not like the mode of AI we were offered.
是的，这……而且它确实让许多伟大的开发者发生了转变。它从人工智能做一些基本的自动补全，可能写5%、10%、15%、20%的代码，转变到写80%的代码。- 或者100%。- 或者100%，是的，特别是如果它不是面向公众的产品。- 对我来说，这就是为什么即使我回顾一年前的对话，我实际上并没有不同的观点。我有相同的观点。一年前，我并不喜欢我们被提供的那种人工智能模式。
It was the autocomplete mode, or it was the AI chatbot mode. Now, the chatbot I actually liked, as we talked about. Great tutor right from the get-go, great way of looking things up on the internet, not what was gonna replace me chiseling code. But- ... then we get the agents. And the agents start out being curiosities for about five minutes, and then they get amazing, and then they get, "Oh my God, is this AGI?" And all of that happened since last year, even just within the last nine months.
那是自动补全模式，或者是人工智能聊天机器人模式。现在，聊天机器人我其实很喜欢，正如我们谈到的。从一开始就是很好的导师，在互联网上查找东西的好方法，不是那种会取代我雕琢代码的东西。但是……然后我们有了智能体。智能体一开始大约五分钟内是好奇的对象，然后它们变得惊人，然后它们变成，“哦，我的天，这是通用人工智能吗？”所有这一切都发生在去年以来，甚至就在过去九个月内。
We have basically these few phases here. We have AI in the pre-agentic era. I was excited about that, but it was not fundamentally rewriting the rules of the game for me. It was not completely changing how I worked. I was still chiseling code, I just had a little helper, a little sidekick- ... who could bounce ideas off, and I could look up this information online and so forth in a more efficient way. It was just a more efficient way to do what I was already doing, and it didn't change the emotional connection I had to the computer.
我们基本上有这几个阶段。我们有前智能体时代的人工智能。我对那感到兴奋，但它并没有从根本上改写游戏规则。它没有完全改变我的工作方式。我仍然在雕琢代码，只是有了一个小助手，一个小伙伴……可以与之交流想法，我可以更高效地在网上查找信息等等。它只是让我做已经做的事情更高效，并没有改变我与电脑之间的情感联系。
Then we get to November 24th, 2025. Opus 4.5, to me, was the dividing line, where suddenly... I didn't even try it on the 24th. I think I tried it on the 26th. I give it a couple of tasks, and I realize that the quality of the output is uncannily close to what I would've written. And I remember just leaning back and thinking, "What just happened?" "How did we go from this autocomplete mess that I was talking to you about in the summer to this just a few short months later?
然后我们来到了2025年11月24日。对我来说，Opus 4.5 是一个分水岭，突然间……我24号甚至没试它。我想我是26号才试的。我给了它几个任务，然后意识到输出的质量与我可能写出的内容惊人地接近。我记得自己往后一靠，心想：“刚才发生了什么？”“我们是怎么从夏天我跟你说的那个自动补全的混乱状态，短短几个月后就变成这样的？”
How did we get both the increase in intelligence and then also the increase in usability?" This agent harness question where I don't know if Opus 4.5 was that much smarter than Opus 4, which is what we had in the summer, but its ability to instrument your computer, to use tools, to check its own work, to apply its intelligence in such a way that you could get real meaningful work out of it, was completely different. And I think this is then the big change that happens for almost anyone who paid attention and started playing with it over the Christmas break.
我们是怎么同时获得智能的提升和可用性的提升的？这个代理工具的问题在于，我不知道 Opus 4.5 是否比我们夏天用的 Opus 4 聪明很多，但它操作你的电脑、使用工具、检查自己的工作、以这样一种方式运用其智能，让你能从中获得真正有意义的工作成果的能力，是完全不同的。我认为这就是几乎所有在圣诞假期关注并开始玩它的人所经历的重大变化。
This is what I heard- ... from Shopify and other places with lots of employees who suddenly had a breather, suddenly had a couple of weeks to lean back and just look at what was going on, gave it a try, and had the same mind-blowing experience that these agents were of a different genre than what we had before. And then what we get to is, I'm already excited at this point. Like, by December, I'm already revisiting sort of all my priors- ... and going like, "Wow, if it can do this, can it also do that?"
这是我听说的——从 Shopify 和其他拥有大量员工的地方传来的消息，他们突然有了喘息的机会，突然有了几周时间可以放松下来，看看正在发生的事情，试了一下，然后经历了同样的震撼体验，这些代理与我们之前所见的属于不同类型。然后我们到了这个点，我已经很兴奋了。比如，到了12月，我已经在重新审视我所有的先验假设——然后想：“哇，如果它能做到这个，那它也能做到那个吗？”
"Oh, yeah, it can." And again, Opus 4.5 now looks like a retarded model. And this is the magic of this progress, is you think you've reached something... I remember thinking at the moment, "If this is the last model we get, I'
“哦，是的，它能。”而且，Opus 4.5 现在看起来像个落后的模型。这就是这种进步的魔力，你以为你达到了某种境界……我记得当时在想：“如果这是我们得到的最后一个模型，我’”
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