德州市政债融资成本因ESG禁令显著上升
Texas Is the Tip of a Melting Muni Iceberg: How a 'Boycott' Led to Higher Costs | Bloomberg...
揭示了特定监管政策（ESG禁令）如何实质性改变跨州资产定价与融资成本，为宏观配置提供新的逻辑变量。
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You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and Tim Stenc on Bloomberg Radio.
您正在收听由卡罗尔·马瑟和蒂姆·斯滕克主持的《彭博商业周刊》，来自彭博电台。
Great to have back in studio with us in our Bloomberg interactive studio, Matt Winkler. He's Bloomberg News editor-inchief joining Emily and me. Let's talk Texas. Why did it first come up on your radar? I'm just curious, did you write a column? Like what is it that led you to that? Is it
很高兴马特·温克勒再次来到我们的彭博互动演播室与我们在一起。他是彭博新闻社主编，与艾米丽和我一同出席。我们来谈谈德克萨斯州。为什么它首先引起了你的注意？我只是好奇，你写过专栏吗？是什么样的事情让你关注到这一点？是因为
actually it goes back uh several years now. Uh there was a momentous event in Texas and Florida. In Texas, it was called SB13. Mh.
实际上，这要追溯到几年前。得克萨斯州和佛罗里达州发生了一件具有历史意义的事件。在得克萨斯州，这被称为SB13法案。嗯。
It was legislation that prohibited anyone on Wall Street from underwriting, ensuring anything that had to do with state and local government debt in the state of Texas if they were committed to the so-called net zero banking alliance, which was climate change, uh, zero emissions by 2050, a pledge, uh, transparency in markets, all kinds of actually good stuff, right? But it came under those letters ESG and also DEI.
这是一项立法，禁止华尔街的任何人在得克萨斯州承销或担保任何与州和地方政府债务相关的事务，如果这些机构承诺加入所谓的“净零银行联盟”，该联盟旨在应对气候变化，承诺到2050年实现零排放，并提高市场透明度等，这些都是非常好的举措，对吧？但这些都被归入了ESG（环境、社会和治理）以及DEI（多元、公平和包容）的范畴。
And um the problem uh for the banks was if they didn't uh comply they would lose the business with Texas.
而银行面临的问题是，如果不遵守规定，它们将失去与得克萨斯州的业务合作。
And of course they all folded.
当然，它们全都屈服了。
What is interesting about this is since the bill went into effect, it's now several years now. the difference between California and Texas in the municipal bond market suddenly widened and that spread that you ref you referenced uh three uh.3 percentage point 30 basis points is real and it's permanent even with all the help of Wall Street and Texas really has not recovered since. Now what else is going on? Texas has an antipathy to science.
有趣的是，自该法案生效以来，现在已经过去了几年时间，加利福尼亚州和得克萨斯州在市政债券市场上的差异突然扩大，而你提到的那3.3个百分点（即30个基点）的利差是真实存在的，并且是永久性的。即使在华尔街的大力帮助下，得克萨斯州至今仍未恢复。那么，还有什么其他情况呢？得克萨斯州对科学持抵触态度。
How do we know that? Well, science tells us that Texas is burning up, literally. And one big example of that is Corpus Christi, uh, a city on the Gulf of Mexico, uh, more than 300,000 people. It's where Elon Musk has a lithium refinery. And the credit rating companies have downgraded Corpus Christi because it will run out of water by 2027, not too long away. So, so what you're talking about is this this whole push back against ESG which was such a craze and everybody was involved in it and the financial industry, right, um really kind of embraced it and then Texas pushed back.
我们怎么知道这一点呢？科学告诉我们，得克萨斯州正在 literally（字面上/确实地）燃烧起来。一个很大的例子就是科珀斯克里斯蒂市，这是墨西哥湾沿岸的一座城市，人口超过30万。埃隆·马斯克在那里拥有一家锂精炼厂。信用评级机构已经下调了科珀斯克里斯蒂市的评级，因为该市将在2027年面临缺水危机，时间并不遥远。所以，你所说的正是这种对ESG的全面反弹。ESG曾经风靡一时，每个人都参与其中，金融行业也真的拥抱了这一趋势，然后得克萨斯州开始反击。
But you're right, I mean this is a state that is seeing the impact of climate change in a big way and so kind of their push back has resulted in this gap where it's just you're you're seeing Corpus Christie and some other municipalities penalized as a result.
但你说得对，这是一个正以巨大方式感受到气候变化影响的州，因此它们的反弹导致了这一差距，使得像科珀斯克里斯蒂和其他一些市政当局因此受到惩罚。
Yeah. Well, we already know about record heat,
是的。我们已经知道创纪录的高温，
right?
对吧？
Okay. 23 was that year in the world and Texas was included. Uh floods, devastating floods, sort of backtoback actually a year ago and then again this year in Texas. So, drought, floods, it's very biblical, but it's also very scientific. And Texas is heating up. Um and its resources are depleted. And guess what? Markets are not, or I should say, money is not ideological.
好的。23年是全球性的一年，德克萨斯州也未能幸免。嗯，洪水，毁灭性的洪水，实际上是一年前和今年在德克萨斯州接连发生的。所以，干旱、洪水，这很《圣经》，但也很科学。德克萨斯州正在升温。嗯，其资源正在枯竭。猜猜怎么着？市场不是，或者我应该说，金钱没有意识形态。
Money simply is about relative value. And the relative value of Texas is depreciating relative to California. Now, I'll get into that in a second because California embraces ESG. California says science is is our savior. We need to commit ourselves to science. So, California is the opposite of Texas from a perspective of policymaking. And historically, California and Texas have borrowed at rates that have been comparable because even though California is lesser rated, it's a high tax state, Texas is a low tax state, no income tax, but California suddenly has more demand than it ever had relative to Texas since SB13.
金钱仅仅关乎相对价值。而德克萨斯州的相对价值相对于加利福尼亚州正在贬值。现在，我稍后会详细解释这一点，因为加利福尼亚州拥抱ESG（环境、社会和治理）。加利福尼亚州说科学是我们的救星。我们需要致力于科学。因此，从政策制定的角度来看，加利福尼亚州与德克萨斯州截然相反。历史上，加利福尼亚州和德克萨斯州都以可比的利率借款，因为尽管加利福尼亚州的评级较低，但它是一个高税收州，德克萨斯州是一个低税收州，没有所得税，但自SB13以来，加利福尼亚州的需求突然超过了以往任何时候相对于德克萨斯州的需求。
Okay? Now, let me just explain that in a second because lots of people who follow the municipal bond market will tell you, "Oh, they've always had this difference because the high tax state and the low tax state, you know, have different constituencies in the market." Well, yes, that's true. But the trend changed with SB13. And so the
好吗？现在，让我稍后解释一下，因为许多关注市政债券市场的人会告诉你，“哦，他们一直存在这种差异，因为高税收州和低税收州在市场中有不同的选民群体。”嗯，是的，这是真的。但趋势随着SB13发生了变化。所以，这个
2021 when this happened,
2021年当这种情况发生时，
that was the bill that passed since 23. Since 23, the borrowing of these two states has favored California and higher rated Texas is at a disadvantage. Now go back 16 years prior to SB13. The rates between California and Texas were roughly comparable. So you suddenly have this widening spread. People will say it's technical. Well, yeah, it is technical, but the technicality is SP13.
那是自23年以来通过的法案。自23年以来，这两个州的借贷有利于加利福尼亚州，而评级较高的德克萨斯州处于不利地位。现在回到SB13之前的16年。加利福尼亚州和德克萨斯州之间的利率大致相当。所以你突然看到这种利差扩大。人们会说这是技术性的。嗯，是的，它是技术性的，但技术性在于SP13。
Can I just throw in one stat that's in your column? The costs are real. Bloomberg Intelligence found in June 2025 that it at$ 1.1 trillion dollars, no state has suffered more in climate related expenses over the prior 20 years than Texas. Right. So the numbers, we love the numbers and they they tell the story.
我可以在你的专栏中加一个统计数据吗？成本是真实的。彭博情报在2025年6月发现，它达到1.1万亿美元，在过去20年中，没有任何州在气候相关支出上遭受的损失比德克萨斯州更多。对。所以数字，我们喜欢数字，它们讲述了故事。
Ignorance and arrogance is a deadly combination. [laughter]
无知和傲慢是一个致命的组合。[笑声]
I'll let you say that.
我会让你说那个。
Okay. So are you seeing then that this is an example of the MUN market pricing in climate risk? Is that what's happening? Yes, it certainly is the case with Corpus Christi without a doubt.
好的。那么你是否看到这是一个MUN市场为气候风险定价的例子？这就是正在发生的事情吗？是的，毫无疑问，科珀斯克里斯蒂的情况确实如此。
Rating or I should say credit rating companies have already said as much. Um, and people who follow Corpus Christi have said what we saw this year is directly related to climate.
评级或我应该说信用评级公司已经说过这样的话。嗯，关注科珀斯克里斯蒂的人说，我们今年看到的直接与气候有关。
That the market has said you have to price in the risk. That Corpus Christi can't figure out how to deal with what's coming next because it doesn't have the resources, doesn't have the policy. Texas doesn't have policies that California does for mitigating the outcomes of climate change.
市场已经表明，你必须将风险计入定价。科珀斯克里斯蒂（Corpus Christi）无法弄清楚如何应对即将到来的挑战，因为它缺乏资源，也缺乏相关政策。德克萨斯州没有像加利福尼亚州那样用于缓解气候变化后果的政策。
Okay. So your column is titled the tip of the MUN iceberg. So what's the iceberg?
好的。所以你的专栏标题是“MUN冰山一角”。那么这座冰山指的是什么？
Melting like like a lot of icebergs these days. It's melting. And so this is not going to go away.
就像如今许多冰山一样正在融化。它正在消融。因此这种情况不会消失。
Florida's are already feeling it, right? And you point that out in the column. And what's interesting,
佛罗里达州的人们已经在感受到影响，对吧？你在专栏中也指出了这一点。而有趣的是，
Florida is actually worse than Texas. Florida is now borrowing a full percentage point more than California. And again, that's AAA rated Florida, double A rated California.
佛罗里达州的状况实际上比德克萨斯州更糟。佛罗里达州目前的借贷成本比加利福尼亚州高出整整一个百分点。再次强调，这是AAA评级的佛罗里达州与AA评级的加利福尼亚州之间的对比。
You know, if you're a corporation, if you're a business, you got to really be thinking about these things because it does matter. Um, it affects everything. I mean, in the case of Texas, you know, we're talking about 3 million, as you said, on every $1 billion of borrowing. In the case of Corpus Christi, we're talking about real money that would go to roads, right? Build roads, build other facilities that isn't there.
你知道，如果你是一家公司或企业，你真的必须认真考虑这些问题，因为这确实很重要。嗯，它影响方方面面。我的意思是，以德克萨斯州为例，正如你所说，每10亿美元的借贷涉及300万美元的成本。而在科珀斯克里斯蒂的案例中，我们谈论的是原本可以用于修建道路等基础设施的实实在在的资金，而这些设施目前并不存在。
Correct. Right. if you're paying more money in terms of a bond or immunity issuance, there's some money that's not going to be paid out. You know what's interesting, Matt? ESG when it first came out, that's what it was all about, right? So that people thought about environmental, social, or guidance uh or governance issues and how it could maybe financially or material impact an asset or an investment and and it got caught up in some other stuff. every leader on Wall Street that's been in this space and talked to you over the years committed to ESG.
没错。是的，如果你在债券或免税债券发行上支付更多资金，就意味着有些钱不会被支出出来。你知道吗，马特（Matt），很有趣的一点是，ESG（环境、社会和治理）概念刚出现时，其核心正是如此，对吧？当时人们关注环境、社会或治理问题，以及它们如何可能对资产或投资产生财务或实质性影响，但后来它被卷入了一些其他争议中。多年来，华尔街每一位在这个领域与你交流过的领导者都承诺支持ESG。
Yeah.
是的。
And then with the uh election of Trump for the second time in 2024, they suddenly decided we'll take the money and run.
然后，随着特朗普在2024年第二次当选总统，他们突然决定拿钱走人。
But it's interesting because it does have a material impact or there's a cost.
但这很有趣，因为它确实会产生实质性影响或带来成本。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah. And you know what's interesting since we're on the subject?
是的。而且既然我们谈到了这个话题，你知道有什么有趣的事吗？
Yeah. Just this month, University of California, Berkeley has a study that says the companies that didn't didn't abandon ESG are doing just as well in public markets.
是的。就在本月，加州大学伯克利分校的一项研究表明，那些没有放弃ESG的公司，在公开市场上的表现同样出色。
As those that did. So, this notion that ESG is woke and woke is broke, as Donald Trump has said.
与那些放弃ESG的公司表现相当。因此，唐纳德·特朗普所说的“ESG是觉醒文化，而觉醒文化导致破产”这种观点值得商榷。
Yeah.
是的。
Uh isn't borne out by the facts. But some of these institutions, maybe they weren't coming out publicly and saying we're in support of ESG, but they were maybe behind the scenes still supporting the cause or I I mean I think I I remember writing about some Black Rockck funds that had ESG in the name and then after the election were named something different that didn't have that ticker in it, but they haven't walked away completely or
然而，事实并非如此。但其中一些机构或许并未公开表示支持ESG（环境、社会和公司治理），但它们可能在幕后仍在支持这一事业。我的意思是，我记得曾写过关于一些贝莱德（BlackRock）基金的文章，这些基金的名称中带有ESG字样，但在选举之后，它们改用了不含该缩写的其他名称。不过，它们并没有完全退出。
Well, where I think we all come from is you've got to walk the walk, talk the talk, and [clears throat] they go together. and Wall Street isn't walking the walk. Uh or first of all, it stopped talking about E
我认为我们大家的共识是：言行一致，表里如一。华尔街却未能做到言行一致。首先，它停止谈论E（环境）了。
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