特朗普考虑将霍尔木兹海峡宣布为“领土”
Trump Likes the Idea of Declaring Hormuz a "Territory"
Nick, I want to kick it off with you. I'm going to start big and broad. Are we a more secure world? Are we less secure or TBD? I never give you easy questions. Do I figure it out? Well, listen, I mean, uh, you know, if you if you look at the pure metrics, uh, of the Iran war and the Strait of Hormuz, you would have to argue that, uh, we are not. Of course, President Trump would argue differently, but you had a sort of status quo, uh, prior to the US attacks on Iran, where oil was flowing through freely through the strait.
尼克,我想从你开始聊。我要从一个宏大而宽泛的问题入手。我们这个世界是更安全了,还是更不安全了,还是说尚未可知?我从来不会给你简单的问题。我是不是得自己琢磨?嗯,听我说,我的意思是,呃,你知道,如果你看伊朗战争和霍尔木兹海峡的纯粹数据指标,你不得不承认,呃,我们并没有更安全。当然,特朗普总统会有不同说法,但在美国对伊朗发动攻击之前,有一种相对稳定的状态,呃,石油自由地通过霍尔木兹海峡流动。
Uh, and now it's not, um, and this has been really one of the problems that has bedeviled the president. Of course, his administration continues to claim that it's Iran that wants a deal, uh, that he's in no rush. But, uh, there are some suggestions that really indicate he's growing weary of this. You also have the strain that I'm sure Mark will be able to talk about as well, on the U.S. troops and the U.S. assets that are in the region.
呃,而现在不是这样了,嗯,这确实是困扰总统的问题之一。当然,他的政府继续声称是伊朗想要达成协议,呃,他并不着急。但是,呃,有一些迹象确实表明他对此越来越厌倦。你还有压力,我相信马克也能谈到,对美国在该地区的军队和资产的压力。
Uh, and there's a lot of broad concern from U.S. allies in Asia. You mentioned South Korea, if President Trump is now going to try to exert leverage over a country like South Korea, over on, well, what does that mean for the U.S.? A commitment to South Korea in a region where China is still looking to make its own moves. So a lot of uneasiness from US allies. Spin it back to the Western Hemisphere, though. You have Nicolas Maduro, who's been removed.
呃,而且亚洲的美国盟友有很多广泛的担忧。你提到了韩国,如果特朗普总统现在试图对一个像韩国这样的国家施加压力,那么,嗯,这对美国意味着什么?在一个中国仍在寻求自身动作的地区,美国对韩国的承诺意味着什么?所以美国盟友有很多不安。不过把话题转回西半球。你有尼古拉斯·马杜罗,他已经被赶下台了。
The president argues that's a win. Uh, but, you know, a lot of instability, a lot of concerns. So, um, you know, but certainly looking at Hormuz, uh, I would say we are not as secure as we were before. Uh, February. Mark, uh, Nicasio is just laying it also. Well, come on in on it. I am curious too. We've talked a lot about the USS Abraham Lincoln. Um, we've heard from the president saying, uh, the deployment not nearly long enough.
总统认为那是一个胜利。呃,但是,你知道,有很多不稳定因素,很多担忧。所以,嗯,你知道,但当然看霍尔木兹海峡,呃,我会说我们并不像之前那样安全。呃,二月。马克,呃,尼卡西奥也这么说了。嗯,请继续深入谈谈。我也很好奇。我们谈了很多关于亚伯拉罕·林肯号航母的事。嗯,我们听到总统说,呃,部署时间远远不够长。
There's a lot of things that we could hit on, but take it away from your, uh, vantage point in terms of global national security, U.S. national security. Well, what one of the problems is how do you define U.S. interests. Now, I agree with what we've just heard that, uh, you know, there have been some very concerning events, uh, street for moves being right up there, the Trump administration, you know, they're much more, uh, skeptical about defending Europe.
有很多事情我们可以讨论,但从你的角度,从全球国家安全、美国国家安全的角度来谈吧。嗯,问题之一是如何定义美国的利益。现在,我同意我们刚才听到的,呃,你知道,有一些非常令人担忧的事件,呃,街头行动就在其中,特朗普政府,你知道,他们对保卫欧洲更加持怀疑态度。
They are skeptical about even the Western Pacific and believe that countries there should do more, that the United States has been taken advantage of. So from the perspective of many of the administration, we're better off because if the Europeans are threatened by Russia, that's not our problem. You know, we will be able to keep more of our forces and, um, uh, resources at home. Now, the concern is that, you know, we've we've tried that strategy twice in the past and failed both times.
他们甚至对西太平洋也持怀疑态度,认为那里的国家应该做得更多,美国一直被占便宜。因此,从许多政府官员的角度来看,我们反而更好,因为如果欧洲受到俄罗斯的威胁,那不是我们的问题。你知道,我们就能把更多的兵力和资源留在国内。但现在的问题是,我们过去曾两次尝试这种策略,两次都失败了。
You know, there's no need to try it a third time. But many of the administration folk, you know, focused on America first. Um, and one of the problems that I think they're realizing is that even if you have a strategy that says America First. We're going to focus on the hemisphere and the homeland. We still get dragged into these, uh, uh, foreign events like the Middle East. Uh, like Europe, like the Western Pacific.
你知道,没必要再试第三次。但许多政府官员,你知道,专注于美国优先。嗯,我认为他们正在意识到的一个问题是,即使你有一个说“美国优先”的策略,我们要专注于西半球和本土,我们仍然会被拖入这些外国事件,比如中东,比如欧洲,比如西太平洋。
So, uh, if we're a, um, global superpower, you know, we're we need to maintain those global capabilities. And right now, we're seeing that the Navy is stretched and our ammunitions inventories are much lower than, uh, the war planners would like. Yeah. Mark, I mean, what are you really moving towards, in my estimation here is this ongoing discussion of the US weapons stockpile. You know, I've, uh, talked about this with Nick plenty of times, but it seems like right now the administration is a bit sensitive to this discussion.
所以,如果我们是一个全球超级大国,你知道,我们就需要维持那些全球能力。而现在,我们看到海军已经捉襟见肘,我们的弹药库存远低于战争规划者希望的水平。是的,马克,我的意思是,在我看来,你真正要谈的是关于美国武器储备的持续讨论。你知道,我和尼克已经谈过很多次了,但现在看来,政府对这个讨论有点敏感。
And I'm just curious what you think, you know, and telling our viewers who maybe aren't paying as much attention to the weapons aspect. Is it a dire situation? Is it a troubling situation? Where do you benchmark this at. I would I probably put it at troubling. Um, but you have to keep in mind that munitions covers a lot of territory, and there are some munitions where we have good stockpiles. For example, uh, we're rebuilding stockpiles for ground, uh, munitions for, uh, and, uh, there are some, uh, uh, short range ground attack munitions that, uh, we have pretty good stockpiles on.
我只是好奇你怎么看,你知道,告诉那些可能不太关注武器方面的观众。这是不是个严峻的情况?是不是个令人担忧的情况?你把它放在什么基准上。我可能会把它放在“令人担忧”这一档。嗯,但你必须记住,弹药涵盖了很多领域,有些弹药我们有充足的储备。例如,我们正在重建地面弹药的储备,而且有些短程地面攻击弹药,我们的储备相当充足。
But there are other areas where, uh, we are short. The one place where we're really desperately short is, um, defenses against ballistic missiles. And these are systems like Patriot, which many people have heard of, uh, Thad and, uh, the Navy's SM three. We've used about half of those Patriot little more, uh, SM three a little less. And there are no good alternatives. Does like, is it like a level those is it like a level that keeps you up at night?
但在其他领域,我们短缺。我们真正极度短缺的一个领域是弹道导弹防御。这些系统包括爱国者(很多人听说过)、萨德,以及海军的SM-3。我们已经用了大约一半的爱国者,多一点,SM-3少一点。而且没有好的替代品。这是不是那种让你夜不能寐的程度?
Um. that would keep me up at night. Uh, uh, now, you know, we have alternatives from some of the other conditions in. There are some things that have come out of the war that I think do help deterrence against China. But this is the this is an area where we are sure it is going to take a long time to rebuild those. And there are no good substitutes. So, Nick, come on in on here. You know, you've covered national security from so many different angles, but let's go, um, to our military stockpile.
嗯,那会让我夜不能寐。呃,呃,现在,你知道,我们有来自其他一些条件的替代方案。战争中产生了一些东西,我认为确实有助于对中国的威慑。但这是一个我们确信需要很长时间才能重建的领域,而且没有好的替代品。所以,尼克,请加入进来。你知道,你从这么多不同的角度报道过国家安全,但让我们谈谈我们的军事储备。
And what you're hearing, because the administration and I guess I understand it on some level, gets very defensive, no pun intended, when it comes to any criticism, uh, about the size of military stockpiles. What do we know for real? And I do understand we have to keep some of this quiet because it is a security issue, right? I mean, it's very interesting because having covered, uh, U.S. wars, going back to Iraq in the early 2000, I mean, as a reporter, I was used to constant daily, incessant briefings from the administration, certainly putting their spin on the state of U.S. forces, number of casualties, territory stockpiles, things like that.
你听到的是,因为政府,我想我在某种程度上理解,当涉及到对军事储备规模的任何批评时,它会变得非常防御性,无意双关。我们真正知道什么?我确实理解我们必须对其中一些保持沉默,因为这是一个安全问题,对吧?我的意思是,这非常有趣,因为报道过美国战争,追溯到2000年代初的伊拉克,作为记者,我习惯了政府每天不断、无休止的简报,当然会对他们关于美军状态、伤亡人数、领土储备等方面的说法进行解读。
And while a lot of this was considered a secret, you could get some estimation of where things stood. And this administration has taken a much different approach. It's much more difficult even to get assessment of damage on U.S. bases, uh, in the region that, uh, have been hit by Iranian attacks. So there is so much that we don't know. What we can say, though, is that some of our reporting does suggest that the administration is, um, making decisions partly because of concerns around stockpiles.
虽然其中很多被视为机密,但你可以对情况有所估计。而这届政府采取了截然不同的方法。甚至更难获得对美国在该地区基地受损情况的评估,这些基地曾遭到伊朗袭击。所以有太多我们不知道的事情。不过,我们可以说的是,我们的一些报道确实表明,政府正在做出决定,部分原因是出于对储备的担忧。
So when you had the president essentially promising to unleash a massive new, uh, military campaign against Iran a couple of weeks ago, and then the reporting suggested that U.S. allies in the region were telling him, listen, we do not think this is the best path forward. We did have some indication at that time that concerns around strikes, on U.S. allies in the region Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, United Arab Emirates. Cutter, for example, uh, that the U.S. understood it would not be able to defend them as well as it would want to, uh, because of concerns around its ability to, uh, knock down all of those incoming strikes from Iran.
所以,当总统几周前基本上承诺对伊朗发动大规模新军事行动,然后报道显示该地区的美国盟友告诉他,听着,我们认为这不是最佳的前进道路。我们当时确实有一些迹象表明,对地区美国盟友——沙特阿拉伯、巴林、阿拉伯联合酋长国,例如卡塔尔——的袭击担忧,美国明白自己无法像希望的那样保护他们,因为担心自己击落所有来自伊朗的来袭导弹的能力。
So it's a very complicated picture. There's a lot at play. There's a lot we don't know. But we can at least say that the evidence we're getting from the reporting does suggest that concerns around those stockpiles are starting to influence the way the administration does make decisions in the region about what it will do next. And, Nick, when you say not be able to defend our allies in the region as much as we'd want to.
所以这是一个非常复杂的局面。有很多因素在起作用。我们还有很多未知。但至少可以说,我们从报道中获得的证据确实表明,对这些储备的担忧开始影响政府在该地区决定下一步行动的方式。尼克,当你提到无法像我们希望的那样充分保卫我们在该地区的盟友时。
Can you unpack that for listeners who maybe don't really understand the day to day of what you might be talking about? Well, I mean, it's it's like what Mark said. I mean, if there's a ballistic missile that comes in, I mean, that's a very powerful weapon. And if it can't be defended against because there's a shortage of Patriot missiles or they're being much more selective about their targeting. Um, you know, those, those sort of targeting decisions a
你能为那些可能不太理解你日常谈论内容的听众解释一下吗?嗯,我的意思是,就像马克说的那样。如果有一枚弹道导弹来袭,那是一种非常强大的武器。如果因为爱国者导弹短缺或他们在目标选择上更加挑剔而无法防御,嗯,你知道,那些目标选择的决定...
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