Gray Swan 联合创始人谈 AI 红队测试与安全新范式

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Join us next week ahead of the Late Bird price hike and get >$40,000 in sponsor credits for attending!Thanks to the US Government issuing an export control directive on Mythos and Fable, the risks of jailbreaks and (industry term) indirect prompt injection are suddenly the talk of the town, though we have been covering AI security for a few years now, from Hackaprompt to the enigmatic Pliny the Elder.Zico Kolter, member of OpenAI’s board of directors on the Safety & Security Committee, and Matt Fredrikson, CMU professor and CEO of Gray Swan, co-authored the definitive paper on Indirect Prompt Injections, and Gray Swan were cited authorities on the Mythos model card, directly investigating the exact capabilities that are under scrutiny right now:We seized the opportunity to ask them the state of AI Red Teaming, and Shade, the adversarial red teaming tool that Anthropic used to evaluate the robustness of their models against prompt injection attacks in coding environments. Shade is part of their overall toolkit covering Simon Willison’s Lethal Trifecta, including Cygnal, an AI guardrails product, and the world’s largest AI Red Teaming Arena, including AIRT celebrity Wyatt Walls.All of this security tooling, and yet, we’re only staving off the inevitable.The risks of extremely smart AI increasingly feel like gray swan events: an event that everyone can see coming. In this episode, Gray Swan cofounders Zico Kolter and Matt Fredrikson join swyx to explain why AI security is not just “cybersecurity with AI,” why agents introduce a new class of vulnerabilities, and why the next major AI incident may be a gray swan: unlikely, but clearly visible before it happens.We go deep on prompt injection, automated red teaming, model robustness, agent identity, computer-use agents, enterprise guardrails, and the emerging AI insurance/compliance stack. Zico and Matt also explain why frontier models are not automatically safer as they scale, why specialized red-teaming models can now beat humans at breaking AI systems, and why the future of AI security may depend on AI systems attacking, defending, and interpreting other AI systems.We discuss:Why AI systems need a different security mindset from traditional softwareHow prompt injection creates a new exploit class for agents like Codex and Claude CodeGray Swan Arena and the rise of community red teamingShade: AI that can outperform humans at breaking modelsWhy LLMs are an alien form of intelligence that fail differently from humansHuman vs browser-agent robustness and why humans ranked fourthWhy eval awareness and capability elicitation matterCygnal: Gray Swan’s guardrail model for policy enforcementWhy bigger models do not automatically become more robustThe lethal trifecta: untrusted data, private data, and exfiltrationWhy “just prompt it better” is not enough for enterprise AI securityOpenClaw, computer-use agents, and the agent security nightmareAgent-native identity, permissions, and enterprise deploymentWhy AI security may become part of insurance and complianceWhy the first major AI prompt-injection breach may be inevitableGray SwanWebsite: https://www.grayswan.ai/Zico KolterX: https://x.com/zicokolterWebsite: https://zicokolter.com/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/zico-kolter-560382a4/Matt FredriksonWebsite: https://www.mattfredrikson.com/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matt-fredrikson-7596349/Timestamps00:00:00 Introduction00:02:31 Why AI Security Is Different00:06:38 Testing Claude, Codex, and Prompt Injection00:07:47 Gray Swan Arena and Automated Red Teaming00:11:14 AI That Breaks Models Better Than Humans00:14:00 LLMs as Alien Intelligence00:19:00 Humans vs AI Agents00:24:35 Red Teaming, Jailbreaks, and Capability Elicitation00:26:11 Cygnal: Guardrails for AI Agents00:34:04 The Lethal Trifecta00:39:31 Can AI Automate AI Research?00:45:47 OpenClaw and the Computer-Use Security Problem00:50:44 Agent Identity, Permissions, and Enterprise AI00:54:24 The Future of AI Security01:00:30 AI Insurance and Compliance01:04:32 The Gray Swan Event Everyone Sees Coming01:06:04 Closing ThoughtsTranscriptIntroduction: Gray Swan, AI Security, and CMUSwyx [00:00:00]: We’re here in the studio with Gray Swan, Matt and Zico. Welcome.Zico [00:00:08]: Great to be here.Matt [00:00:09]: Thanks for having us.Swyx [00:00:10]: You’re visiting from Pittsburgh? The home of all good computer science. I don’t know if I’m overstating things. A very strong university.Zico [00:00:18]: CMU has been the center of a lot of AI since really the dawn of the field.Swyx [00:00:22]: Especially a lot of self-driving and some language learning. Congrats on your Series A. You’re here because you’re attending Snowflake Summit, and Snowflake is one of your investors. Let’s introduce crisply at the top: what is Gray Swan, and what have you chosen as your startup domain?Matt [00:00:42]: At Gray Swan, our mission is to empower everyone to use AI safely and securely. Large language models are software, and if you want to deploy them or build applications on top of them, you need to understand the vulnerabilities and what can go wrong. That includes everyday mistakes, like an agent making the wrong tool call, but also worst-case scenarios where an attacker has an incentive to make your agent misbehave, leak data, or steal credentials. Gray Swan grew out of our research at Carnegie Mellon, where Zico and I have spent over a decade studying new vulnerabilities and attack surfaces in deep learning systems: how to test for them, understand their severity, and make inference more robust.Adversarial Examples and Why AI Security Is DifferentSwyx [00:02:05]: Honestly, a very fruitful area of study for any academic. Throwback, this is 10 years ago, which is basically the entirety of me. I got a lot of inspiration from Ian Goodfellow, a friend of the pod, and this is one of those initial adversarial settings.Matt [00:02:23]: This paper was directly inspired by Ian’s work.Swyx [00:02:29]: Zico, what about your side of the story?Zico [00:02:31]: Like Matt, I have been faculty at Carnegie Mellon for a while. Fundamentally, we believe in the transformative power of AI. It has already transformed the software ecosystem, and it will transform many other ecosystems going forward. The issue is that these systems behave very differently from the software we are used to. I do not just mean that AI can find vulnerabilities in software, though it can. I mean that AI systems have inherent vulnerabilities of their own. They can be tricked in ways people can be tricked, so you need a different security mindset.Zico [00:03:23]: This matters especially when there is the possibility of correlated failures. It is not just that there are many AI systems out there; it is that everyone is using a few models. If you find vulnerabilities in agents that everyone uses, like Codex and Claude Code, you have a new class of exploit. The labs are doing a lot of work here, but when a new platform emerges, a separate security system often emerges alongside it. That is where we are with AI: there is a need for specifically minded AI safety and security providers, and the demand is only going to grow.Treating Models as Untrusted SystemsSwyx [00:04:55]: I want to highlight right at the top that this is not a cyber episode in the traditional sense. A lot of people looking at the title might think that, but you’re actually trying to treat these models inherently as untrusted entities?Zico [00:05:11]: Exactly. This is a common conflation because AI is also good at cybersecurity problems, both solving them and causing them. But AI systems themselves introduce new vulnerabilities. Gray Swan is not about using AI to make your cyber infrastructure better; it is about understanding and mitigating the security risks you bring in when you adopt and deploy AI.Matt [00:05:49]: A big part of that is how people are using artificial intelligence. O