Anthropic CEO Dario Amodei专访：AI加速如相对论，保持理性应对

How much are you sleeping? You know, I've never been someone who slept all that. Well, let's just say I'm, you know, I'm, I'm learning the art of, of, you know, finding ways to relax and sleep through, through moments of unusual pressure. It is all moving so fast. How does it feel on the inside? It's this feeling of like the exponential, like, you know, suppose you were to accelerate away from earth on a spaceship at relativistic speed.

The way special relativity works is, you know, you go, you go to sleep and you wake up in two days have gone by on earth. And so you have to deal with two days in one day. And then you go to sleep. And then because you've continued to accelerate, three days have gone by on earth, and then the next day and four days have gone by. And that's a little bit what it feels like. I mean, do you go to bed constantly paranoid about what you'll wake up to?

There are enough clear and present issues that we have to deal with that I'm, I'm constantly dealing with those, while thinking about how we can prepare. But, but you know, I, you know, I, I don't think paranoia or worrying about what you'll wake up to is productive. You know, I've looked at people in history who've, you know, who've dealt with these very high pressure situations and, you know, you need to learn to respond rationally and, and not put dangers out of proportion to each other.

This yo-yoing between, I'm not worried and oh my God, we need to panic today. I, I I, I, I think that's a hallmark of immature decision making. And the actual mature decision making is we can't ignore this. We can't be complacent. In fact, it's getting to be a bigger and bigger risk. But, you know, we, we have to respond rationally. You know, like a, like a surgeon would deal with an operation or, you know, like a military officer would, you know, deal with a military operation or, you know, someone making decisions that affect a lot of people has to make those decisions rationally and they have to understand the risk, but they, they, you know, they have to maintain a basic sense of calm.

So my son yesterday was like, can I use your Claude Cowork account? And I was like, absolutely not. I need my tokens. We're seeing more and more of them, even in the consumer space. We wanted to be more of an enterprise company. But, you know, it's even, even even consumer without us putting that much effort is starting to go fast. You are at the center of the AI universe right now. What does that feel like? The interesting thing is, is that the experience I've had for my whole career and certainly the whole time at Anthropic is that there's this kind of smooth exponential and the experience, the smooth exponential is, nothing's happening, nothing's happening, nothing's happening.

A little things happen and then zoom, it goes crazy. That's the experience of the world. That's the experience of the scale of the company compared to the other companies and compared to the world. So, you know, I was watching this graph for a while and I said, oh yeah, we'll probably become the AI company with, you know, the, the most revenue and the most valuation some sometime around this time. And, and indeed, indeed it has happened.

So in one sense, I'm not surprised 'cause there's just a smooth line on the graph. But of course in another sense, when things actually happen, you just, you see so much more, you know, detail and color to it and it, you know, it definitely is surprising. And what we're just keeping in mind, all the things we usually keep in mind, which are, which are just, you know, how do we train good models? How do we put them in good products?

How do we make sure that everything's safe? How do we help people but also manage the societal risks around the technology? It's, it's all the same questions, just kind of under a bigger, under a bigger microscope as it were. What were you like as a kid growing up in San Francisco? I know your, your dad was a leather craftsman. Your mom worked in libraries. How did that shape you? You know, the whole, you know, like first, you know, internet revolution was happening around me and I had absolutely no interest in it.

I was just interested in like, doing math and like scra, you know, scrawling things, I was interested in, like understanding the universe. I was interested in science fiction. Like that was, that was kind of the, you know, that was the, that was the general, that was the general milieu. I, I think I just felt a lot of curiosity about the world. You grew up in the town where, you know, that is the center of technology and right now it's the center of AI you know?

Is there anything about this place, this city here that informed your worldview? Yeah, I mean, I think the general, you know, the general spirit of kind of, you know, nonconformism and individualism and it's okay to be crazy. I think, I think a good deal of that probably did, probably did probably did rub off against me. You know, you hear these stories about, you know, you go to countries in Europe or you know, even other parts of this country where it's, it's just, you know, it's just kind of discouraged or considered weird to like, think about things in some different way, right?

Or have some set of, of some set of crazy ideas. And, you know, there's a lot of things I'm actually very critical about with, with Silicon Valley. But one thing that I think is good about it is this, this encouragement of like, you know, it doesn't matter if all the experts are against you, it doesn't matter, you know, if you have a coherent vision and a coherent world view of the world, you should go and pursue it.

Maybe it just won't work at all. But, but if it does, there's this kind of long tailed ness to it where, you know, there are certain places you can, you know, you can, you can search certain veins of war where, you know, you might, you might find a huge goldmine there. I think that spirit is very important. You, Daniela, your sister and her husband, Holden Karnofsky lived in a group house together back in 2016. What were you debating back then?

That was, I think the time when, you know, Open Philanthropy project was, was, you know, first being startup, which Holden was the lead of. And I was at that time, you know, like a, a biological scientist. So, you know, I was helping them with some of the stuff they were doing around kind of developing world health or biological research. So, you know, I I kind of advised on that stuff and, you know, what were the areas that were promising?

What were the areas that were less promising Your decision to leave Open AI has become Silicon Valley lore. What really happened? Like, beyond the narrative, what were the issues? What did you disagree on? Look, I'll, I'm gonna say it, I'm gonna say it very simply. You know, there are many difficult issues that you know, you face when you're building powerful technology that Anthropic faces every day where we don't know whether we're making the right decision or the wrong decision.

So, you know, there are many valid disagreements to be had on safety. We certainly had some of those disagreements with them, but, you know, people that, that, that, that alone is not sufficient to leave. People here have had disagreements with me, people here have disagreements with each other. But when you feel that you can't trust someone, when you feel that their values are not what they say they are, when you feel that they're not honest, when you feel that they're not in it for the reasons that they say, when you see disturbing patterns of behavior dishonesty, that makes it very hard to, you know, to continue to work with a company, to continue to trust the company.

And look, at the end of the day, why argue with someone when you don't have the same vision and you don't trust them. Like the way the the way to resolve it is you go off and do your thing. They go off and do their thing. And I am completely at peace with the idea that we're doing thin

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