Lighter（$LIT）能否成为Hyperliquid的强劲对手？

Is lit just a copycat beta trade to hype or is it actually something like differentiated in strategy and revenue and economics? As Hyperlid breaks a $60 billion market cap and is positioned to earn a top 10 spot in the crypto industry, investors are starting to realize how big the per market actually could be. When you see Tradfi, Finn, Twitter commentators tweeting about Hyperlid and the Hyperlquid ETFs and DAS are pulling in tens to hundreds of millions of dollars of flows, it makes the entire per sector more interesting and more exciting.

But perhaps the number one reason to be excited about Per is that the world's largest capital market still hasn't given them regulatory approval. There's no one with a PERS license inside the United States because that license doesn't exist yet. So, while you may feel like you're late to the growth of offshore per, the onshore perp game hasn't even started yet. And this isn't just Coinbase, Kraken, or Robin Hood competing amongst themselves for US per market share.

Pers are on their way to eat all of finance. So, you are welcome to dream bigger dreams. The real prize are the big brokerages like IBKR or Charles Swab. And winning those as clients can result in tens of billions of dollars of flows in revenue going to whichever per platform gets regulatory approval and can execute quickly. The two guests on the show today think that Lighter, the ZKL2 on Ethereum, is in prime position to win an outsized share of the United States market given the eventual regulatory clarity the the United States is going to provide to the per sector.

But even outside of the domestic market, the lit token, the token of lighters is already buying back twice the rate of the token compared to Hyperlid and at just a $1 billion valuation compared to Hyperlid 60. All I want to ask the question is lit cheap? I'm here with Flip. He does research at Deli Digital. Flip. Welcome to Banklist. Thank you. Thanks for having me. And I'm also joined by Will Price, a DeFi investor and also an adviser to lighter and I think his first podcast in about four years.

Will, welcome to Banklist. Also both of you guys's first time.

Hi David. I know I tried to record a podcast with you like 5 years ago and we lost the audio very sadly. That's so right. I

This is my first appearance on Banklist.

Right. Right. Oh my god. It was about yams, right?

Oh my gosh. It was

It was about yams. Yeah. We'll let the listener go investigate what Yams was. If they don't know, they don't know, you don't know.

Perfect.

Uh, okay. Uh, guys, I have some questions about lighter. Uh, there has been a ton of attention on hyperlquid. The hyper business model is well established as working extremely well. Uh, Hyperlid is just getting known into trady circles, Wall Street circles, getting a lot of clout and brand. Uh, and there is a lesser known ZK layer 2 on Ethereum that is also doing well in terms of per that I want to know just a little bit more of.

And maybe to kind of just start off this question, this is a question that I hear asked on crypto Twitter and around. Is the uh token of lighter is lit. Is lit just a copycat beta trade to hype or is it actually something like differentiated in strategy and revenue and economics? Uh maybe Flip, I'll kind of just throw that one to you to answer to start.

Yeah, and I think the the short answer there, that's a good question. The short answer is is yes, it's it's different. Um and I think the first and most obvious is is zero fees and and why does that matter? It really affects their distribution strategy and the way in which they onboard new users and sell to existing platforms. And to to expand on that a little bit is if like recently they integrated with Encilico and Encilico is also integrated with Hyperlid.

Well, Hyperlquid has a base builder code fee of 4.5 and Encilico most OEMs order and execution management systems charge one bit to their users for those type of orders. And so the total cost for the user is 5.5 bips versus if you use lighter which has zero fees for their you know partner partner attribution program which is which is builder codes. I know the team would hate me saying that but it's essentially their builder codes.

There's zero fees. So in silicico can still charge one one bit but the trader you save 4.5 which matters a lot for people who trade volume. Um and so the way in which they go about their distribution strategy is is very different than than a hyperlquid. And this also goes into like the team's density. The engineering team, they they they have quite a quite a large engineering team. One of the sharpest teams I've met in crypto and and the talent is very much so on par with a lot of the startups you see in AI now.

And their their talent density on the engineering side allows them to have a white glove treatment to integrating different partners like integrating Telegram. eventually, you know, hopefully they integrate with with brokers, the IBKRS of the world is they have the talent density to go integrate this tech stack for IBKR where the competitors don't quite have the same resource to go do that and nor do they take that approach.

It's usually here's our SDK. If you want to integrate it, please go for it.

So, what I'm hearing and and will maybe I can get you to clarify as well is is the it's cheaper. Lighter is cheaper than Hyperlid. It's not it's not just cheaper. there's actually just like zero fees. But I think what you're alluding to, Flip, is that actually is like kind of a paradigm shift in the structure of the lighter strategy. It's not just that it's competitive on the fee market. It's actually just a completely different strategy that is opened up based on being zero fees and that strategy is expressed or uh being pursued by this very competent engineering team that you alluded to.

Is that correct?

Yeah. So I guess zooming out for a second like yes that's a a difference in lighter's business model and go to market. Lighter also has some architectural differences like you said David is a ZK rollup and who cares if it's a ZK rollup. Well there's a couple of things that that gets you. Number one is it gets you permissionless collateral which reduces the trust surface for for traders. You don't have to trust you know whoever the bridge operator is or or a multi-IG.

Uh the other thing it gets you is you know exit rights. Um lighter has an escape hatch to the Ethereum L1 that can be uh you know triggered in in the event that lighter has a problem without any intervention from the team. And these are uh protections that people in general don't really care about until they really really need them. Uh you know because they relate to to fail safes and decentralization. And so uh I would say that the people that care most about it are institutions.

But you still have to build a compelling product that is is better for the end user. And uh I think that is the intention behind the zero fee for takers business model. And and so the monetization happens by charging market makers fees to trade with with uh retail users.

Could we just expand on that a little bit more? So start from from like square zero or maybe square hyperlquid because that's the anchor that everyone kind of understands. That's the anchor that I understand. What's hyperlquid's business model and then how is it differentiated with lighter?

Yeah, the business model for hyperlquid is trading fees, right? And it is for lighter too. It's it's just you know how much trading fees do you charge and who do you charge them to?

And then so okay, what's that answer for hyperlquid? How much are the trading fees and who does hyperlquid trade uh charge the trading fees to and then I think you alluded to lighter only charges it to market makers. What's the philosophy of the strategy around that? That is uh a good point. And so so Hyperlquid, they they charge the makers, they charge the takers. Uh various C's, they have the

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